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Economic analyst: Forcing employees to join unions bad for economy

By AARON KRAUSE - Reflector Staff Writer | Wednesday February 10 2010, 3:17pm

The president of a fiscally conservative group says the fact that Ohio forces employees to join unions at companies that have them is partly to blame for Ohio's economic problems

Matt Mayer BUY PHOTO

Matt Mayer, president of the Buckeye Institute, spoke to Norwalk Area Huron County Chamber of Commerce Monday. He wants area business leaders to advocate for more business-friendly rules at the state level.

A new institute report looked back to 1990 and 2000 to see how Ohio fared in the "mythical boom era" of the 1990s.

"Ohio added jobs, that is true," Mayer said during a press conference prior to his meeting with chamber members. "But when you look at how many jobs Ohio added compared to other states, we actually were a pretty weak job creator during the boom time of the 1990s.

"When it came to the bust of the last eight years, Ohio busted far more egregiously and severely than other states."

Mayer said his organization wanted to know what factors were keeping Ohio from becoming a "vibrant, robust economy" an economy that in good times creates huge numbers of jobs and in bad times, sustains those jobs or weathers minimal losses.

The Buckeye Institute's report found a "very large correlation" between economic success and "whether you're a right-to-work state or a forced-unionization state," Mayer said. A right-to-work state allows workers at companies with unions to chose whether to join.

If you're a heavily unionized state "chances are you had terrible growth in the 90s compared to other states and your job losses in 2000 was horrible, Mayer said. In terms of job growth, the bottom 15 states from 1990 to today are all states that require unionization. Of the top 15 states, 11 of them do not require workers at companies with unions to join them, Mayer said.

"When you look at that you have to ask yourself some tough questions," he said. "Frankly, we lost jobs because our southern and western states are kicking our tail. They are producing jobs and they're sustaining those jobs in the bad times because there is the economic freedom for the worker.

"Businesses aren't stupid; they're not going to go somewhere where the cost of their business is going to go up arbitrarily because of unionization."

Nonsense, said Steve Yagielo, business manager of Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 42 in Norwalk.

"Yes, it's inaccurate; it's another ploy. Just because a person belongs to a union they 'assume' that the cost of building is going to be higher," Yagielo said.

Yagielo said well-known universities, including Michigan State, have performed extensive research on the cost of construction using union vs. non-unionized employees. He added the studies found no evidence that using unionized workers raises the cost over what Yagielo called "open shop" labor.

In fact, "we put back in the city through tax dollars a considerable more amount than open shop contracts that don't pay people those types of wages and don't offer those types of benefits."

Yagielo said Local 42 turns out "qualified journeymen and women that are very qualified to perform the job task using the education they get through the union's apprenticeship."

The union's five-year apprenticeship program offers more than 200 hours each year in training as well as 2,000 hours of field experience, Yagielo said. Through a partnership with Owens Community College and Lorain County Community College employees earn 31 to 34 credit hours toward an associate degree in construction management, Yagielo said.

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hit the road jack wrote on Feb 18, 2010 4:17 PM:

" Go for it big girl! "

Sassy wrote on Feb 18, 2010 2:51 PM:

" That's right, cuz all us women get hot for the 'union leader' types... "

hit the road jack wrote on Feb 18, 2010 11:30 AM:

" citizen4change,Been that way for a long time now! Union leaders are just like most politicians, they aren't worth a crap! al their intrested in is the money and the women. "

citizen4change wrote on Feb 18, 2010 10:23 AM:

" Alright, here we go. I am 100% for a good strong Union. God knows we need one to protect the employees from Corporate Hogwash. But what i hate is paying over $100 amonth to a Union who does not do what it says its going to do. Union representation for the Class 1 Railroaders here in Ohio is highely inadiquit. They keep promising and promising things and nothing is happening. There is still a wage step process. And so many other things have been promised by the UTU. We still have hundreds of employees laid off. Terminal supers cutting jobs anyway they can. And what has the UTU done to protect us and keep our jobs and bring those furloughed employees back to work? Nothing. But they have raised union dues to over $100 amonth. I don't blame our local Union Reps for any of this. In fact if the upper leadership of our unions would fight for us the way our local reps do, we would be a heck of alot better off. Sometimes i think the upper leadership is in bed with the upper echlon of our railroad. Like i said before, i believe in a strong Union only if they do what they say their going to do. But its not happening for the railroads. Sad to say but true. "

David Deerest. wrote on Feb 17, 2010 3:40 PM:

" Who you talkin' 'bout swiss? William H. Macy? "

David Deerest. wrote on Feb 15, 2010 8:50 AM:

" swiss, put down the crack pipe. There is no picture. And you might want to shut off the tv every once in a while. "

swiss family wrote on Feb 14, 2010 1:19 AM:

" what are you talking about???? I was referring to how he was holding his hands apart, showing a measurement.. like on the Subway commercials???? you know, like a"five dollar foot long?" "

hit the road jack wrote on Feb 12, 2010 11:19 PM:

" Get your mind out of the gutter swiss! "

swiss family wrote on Feb 12, 2010 9:01 PM:

" sorry, I know that this is off topic, but is it just me?? or does everyone when looking at this picture, does the "jingle" play in my head... " five dollar.... five dollar .. foot long"..it must just be me!!! "

6079 Smith W wrote on Feb 12, 2010 10:33 AM:

" joelunchpail wrote on Feb 11, 2010 11:56 PM:

‘You can trace the decline of the US economy with the declline of union membership from a high of about 33% in the late 50's to the present levels.’


You are looking at correlation, not causality.

Numerous other economic and social factors were also at work, such as but not limited to; the rise of the U.S. service economy and the growth of overseas competition.

The fallacy in your argument is that if union membership is increased, the U.S. will experience increased economic growth and productivity? Highly unlikely as union membership is not the overwhelming factor in the equation.

While education is certainly the ultimate key, the U.S. may already be a generation or more behind our foreign economic competitors in producing the much-needed scientists, mathematicians and others. "

onlyinamerica wrote on Feb 12, 2010 7:03 AM:

" Global economy equals a one world government and I refuse to be a part of it! "

joelunchpail wrote on Feb 11, 2010 11:56 PM:

" It never fails to amaze me that these folks who like to point fingers at those who have raised the living standards of regular people and largely created the now vanishing working middle class. The comments by the union rep from Local 42, are applicable to the building trades, that are the offspring of the guilds of the earlier times and a small percentage of unionmembers.

The birth of the working middle class came from the organizing of the unskilled or those seen to be unskilled workers (by the skilled trades in the AF of L) by the Congress of Industrial Organizations, or CIO started by John L Lewis if the UMWA in the '30's, it was from the CIO,that the Steelworkers, the Autoworkers, and other were borned. Things like the 40 hour week, paid vacations, the 8 hour day and other things that have been taken for granted, are the fruit of the struggles at places like Matewan, the Battle of the Overpass, the Flint Sit-In, Little Steel and so on. Those merchants on Main Street who have been dependent on the workers from the unionized work places for customers, are now feeling the pinch because these customers/workers are gone.

The speaker talks about the public sector unions, one of the reasons for the growth in the public sector is similar to other areas, security, being treated with dignity and earning a living wage. The public sector employees were only able to organize after 1983, when the Ferguson Act that prohibited public employees from joining a union in Ohio was repealed. Public sector is about 3% of the total membership of all unions, the private sector membership is at 9%.

You can trace the decline of the US economy with the declline of union membership from a high of about 33% in the late 50's to the present levels. This decline is linked to the outsourcing of jobs in the manufacturing sector to low wage destinations and the introduction of technology that has eliminated or combined jobs that once existed in the workplace.

The bottomline is that the global economy is here, and we, a collective we, have to figure out a way to make our way in it, that does not entail reducing our quality of life to third world levels. Education is the key, and having a well trained workforce is like the field of dreams, create it and they will come. Education is widely heralded as the mainspring of the new economy, but this has a false ring to it, as those who trumpet it do not provide any funds to provide real access to it.

It is a well trained and educated workforce that is first on the wishlist of job creators, aka companies, not tax breaks, abatements, and give aways. The second thing is the school system, is it supported by the community and it is a good system. Then comes housing stocks, recreation and other facets of a quality of life for their employees. "

onlyinamerica wrote on Feb 11, 2010 11:30 PM:

" At least Miejers is a union employer. "

H C South wrote on Feb 11, 2010 6:36 PM:

" If it hadn't been for unions we would all be making the same wages as the chinese right now. I do not always agree with union demands but they are needed to assure a liveable wage. Corparations are notorious for their greed, just look at the banking fiasco. Don't forget the coal mine owners in the 1930's. They didn't pay in dollars they paid in script. Voucher that could only be spent in their businesses. If you don't make enough to pay the bills what is the point in working. "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 11, 2010 12:40 PM:

" most of the time gas in sandusky
is at least 10-12 cents lower.
Just about any day of the year.. "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 11, 2010 12:38 PM:

" I buy my gas when i'm out there..
It's not out of my way or anything.
I like Sandusky's speedway.
Plus save 3cents on the gal. "

rogerthat wrote on Feb 11, 2010 12:29 PM:

" Gallon of 2% milk is often $1.98 at Schilds. Buy 2 when it's on sale, save the gas you use to shop in Sandusky. "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 11, 2010 11:21 AM:

" Looks to me as if Norwalk wants to FAIL!! "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 11, 2010 11:20 AM:

" Meijer is in Sandusky
I shop there sometimes.

Norwalk gas cost less in Berlin Heights

How come people can go to other towns and get there stuff at a lower price.... "

oldfart wrote on Feb 11, 2010 11:08 AM:

" a gallon of 2% only $2.39 at Meijer last Saturday... "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 11, 2010 10:58 AM:

" There labor is lower than Walmarts prices.

Mexico,China,Japan there pay is so low
We can't live on there wages..

compete in a global economy

What A Joke!!! "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 11, 2010 10:49 AM:

" 6079 Smith W
Like it our not, we're competing in a global economy.

We can't compete in a global economy,
They win we lose Game Over
Turn out the lights.

1 Gallon of milk costs about $4.00 "

Most Wanted wrote on Feb 11, 2010 10:44 AM:

" Oldfart, very well put. Makes sense. I'd love to purchase everything from local storeowners. But when I can buy my Hunts Tomato Sauce from Walmart for $1.26 a can or the local grocery for $2.29 a can, and I buy probably 100 cans of sauce a year that is a $103.00 savings a year in just 1 item. Toilet paper is another biggie. I save $2.00 a package at Walmart. That's another $100.00 savings a year. There in just two items I saved enough to pay my electric bill for one month. I probably save enough at Walmart in a year to pay my electric for the entire year. I also can't afford to do otherwise. We're raising 3 kids. You have to save where you can. Wish I didn't, but it's the way it is. "

oldfart wrote on Feb 11, 2010 9:58 AM:

" You can say all you want about the unions and how Wal-Mart has ruined this country, but here are the facts on a personal level:

FACT: I can't afford to over spend and buy a new Ford, Chevy or Dodge. The cost of labor has driven them out of the middle class family's price range and i refuse to be a slave to the finance companies, just to have one in my driveway.

Fact: I can't afford to shop and over spend at the local mom and pop shops. Wal-Mart and Meijer are the 2 stores my family shop. We save roughly 25% in our home shopping costs. When you live on a budget, you have to live within your means. You can't do that effectively shoppiong elsewhere and paying more.

It really is this simple... You do as you see fit for your family and I'll do as i see fit for my family. If you want me to shop and purchase from union employers, then find a way to bring the cost down. "

6079 Smith W wrote on Feb 11, 2010 9:29 AM:

" onlyinamerica wrote on Feb 11, 2010 8:17 AM:

" I boycott Wal-Mart everyday. "

It is of course your choice. I myself try to shop P&R, Gardners and IGA whenever possible.

Don’t be at all that surprised that someday in the not-to-distant future if as the local economy continues to decline, that the local Walmart store is no longer profitable and they leave town.

IMO: Be very careful of what you wish for. "

6079 Smith W wrote on Feb 11, 2010 9:18 AM:

" An abbreviated exchange from POTUS Obama’s Thurs., March 26, 2009 Internet Town Hall Meeting

Harriet in Georgia:

‘When can we expect that jobs that have been outsourced to other countries to come back and be made available to the unemployed workers here in the United States?’

POTUS Obama:

‘...I guess the answer to the question is, not all of these jobs are going to come back. And it probably wouldn't be good for our economy for a bunch of these jobs to come back because, frankly, there's no way that people could be getting paid a living wage on some of these jobs -- at least in order to be competitive in an international setting.’

A short-winded, one-word answer to Harriet’s question: NEVER.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/26/us/politics/26text-obama.html?pagewanted=all "

6079 Smith W wrote on Feb 11, 2010 9:13 AM:

" @ bigwinner:

Huron Co. has a 16% unemployment rate and the highest home foreclosure rate in Ohio.

How are you gonna bring back the low-skilled, high-paying jobs?

Like it our not, we're competing in a global economy.

Even Obama has stated that future high-paying jobs will require an education. Education in 'what' is the problem.

What’s your solution? "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 11, 2010 8:53 AM:

" Thank God U.S.A. is not mexico or china

In mexico they bus workers
to and from work and feed them also.

I could sell my car no need for state farm, no more gas in tank, no new tires every couple years.
Just look at all the money i could save.

Did you see that bus in ohio that PICKS up the workers and takes them to the field to work...
Just like mexico in the U.S.
:0) "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 11, 2010 8:46 AM:

" 6079 Smith W

How about the Toyota Way, black belts and all that B.S.
Just bad ideals.

How about this Pay the workers $3 a day, Then you could pay the boss, mangers $7 day to shout and tell workers what to do....

Let's run the U.S.A. like china.
"That's thinking with your dip stick jimmy" "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 11, 2010 8:38 AM:

" Hello
Most Wanted
Your right ssob's wany more money,There in business to make lots & lots of money.
So the less they pay workers the more for them..
I see where your coming from.
BUT I still don't think that's right.
Sorry we don't see eye to eye

P.S. I am going back to read what swiss family wrote, It's time for my nap and she puts me to sleep..
Ha Ha Ha "

onlyinamerica wrote on Feb 11, 2010 8:30 AM:

" Common sense: $10.00 and hour jobs with no benifits bad for the economy! "

onlyinamerica wrote on Feb 11, 2010 8:17 AM:

" I boycott Wal-Mart everyday. "

6079 Smith W wrote on Feb 11, 2010 6:51 AM:

" In the final analysis, no employer, if he/she wants to remain in business for long, can afford to pay an employee more than they are worth. I would hope that even an economic ignoramus would be able to understand that.

You may want to seek out and talk to small business owners who are currently not even taking a salary in order to help keep their company's doors open and their employees at their jobs.

People like to get hung up on their news media and politically manufactured hatred of Wall St. fat cats and sending job overseas, but it is the small business owners, the ones who mostly belong to chambers of commerce who employ the majority of the workers in this country.



Unions are not the problem. Heck there are even unions in China, Japan and elsewhere. But for the most part, they attempt to work with management and tend not to view their relationship as adversarial.

The foreign unions realize that their future employment is directly tied to the success of their employer and do not ask for the unreasonable wage scales and benefits during contract negotiations.

On the other hand, the vast majority of employers and managers in this country and elsewhere are not paid exorbitant salaries. If one focuses on the seemingly overpaid minority, one misses the big picture.

Here’s my issue: Looking backward and blaming this party or that party is not the answer to the serious economic and fiscal questions facing our county, our state and our country.

Looking for a scapegoat to punish or burning the heretic at the stake is a temporary ‘feel-good’ solution. It only affects the symptoms and doesn’t even come close to curing the disease. "

swiss family wrote on Feb 11, 2010 1:38 AM:

" Wal-Mart has done some good things for their communities, but they have also taken away a lot of charm, an "small town" feel,of people supporting their own communities as well. It used to be, when Sam Walton was alive, that everything that Wal-Mart sold WAS AMERICAN MADE!! he took great pride in that. and it ultimately supported the American producer, and consumer.. then sadly, Sam passed away, and the next generation saw the mountain of gold they were sitting on, and decided to open the market to all takers, ans so many other countries can sell their goods cheaper, because their quality, and price is lower than ours, so now, you would be hard pressed to find many American made products in there..and it has come at our expense, with our job losses.

it would be a great show of support for our own country, and maybe make them take notice , if we had a day, or better yet, a week, when everyone refused to shop and buy anything there..we do have the power if we choose to use it..trust me, they will take notice when the cash flow comes to a stop.. I say we should show them that we want them to go back to only selling American made good!!! or we will shop elsewhere...

it is what made them what they are today, and it was how Sam intended it to be...I know I am dreaming, but what a shocking day or week that would be if all Americans shopped elsewhere, until they upped their merchandise to mostly American made merchandise...that might actually reinstate many of our lost American jobs!!

while we are at it, how about we also demand that thy allow the Salvation Army bell ringers to come into their foyer, where there is heat .. like K Mart , and most other stores do... those poor ringers at Wal Mart, have to sit or stand outside in the rain, snow, and freezing cold..that is just nor right!!! "

onlyinamerica wrote on Feb 10, 2010 11:58 PM:

" Save Money, Help China live better, Wal Mart "

starryeyes83 wrote on Feb 10, 2010 10:33 PM:

" Have gone through about 4 friggin' toasters in last 2-3 years, All well known brands, ALL MADE IN CHINA...their quality is absolute CRAP!! But hey, look at all the $$ they make, I have to keep buying them, until I won't anymore. "

justme47 wrote on Feb 10, 2010 9:00 PM:

" it is all about money .why do you think everything is going overseas or south they can make it for $5.00 a hour that means more money for the ceo and company.it dose not matter if you work 24/7 or if you get hurt they just say oh well next because they got 100 people waiting for the $5 ahour job. have worked for both union and none union i will take union any time.i got fired form a none union job because this kid that was 20 years old boss and just start working there just out of collage wanted his grilfriend to have my job i had been there for 5 years never missed a day never late.never had any bad reports.i guess that is the temp sevice for to bad my union job closed and iam 50 somthing years old "

Most Wanted wrote on Feb 10, 2010 8:12 PM:

" ""bigwinner wrote on Feb 10, 2010 6:44 PM:

You guys want to cry about unions,
Point the finger at the C E O'S & Plant Mangers
And the OWNERS of factories..
See it my way
There the one's getting rich ""


bigwinner, first of all, the owner of a factory should be rich - never got a paycheck from a poor man.

Second of all, and more importantly, since this is a union discussion a supervisor, manager or whatever you call it is considered the "boss" of the hourly worker. Does it not make sense that the "boss" should make more than his highest paid hourly worker? Maybe he's making too much because the union worker is making too much. I don't know any boss who makes less than who he supervises. That's a union doing.

Take that a step further: Do you know any Plant Manager who makes less than his supervisors or managers? Since the Union demands $X, the supervisor gets $XX, and the Plant Mangager gets $XXX.

A Plant Manager in most instances is a highly educated person. Most Managers have at least a bachelors degree, many a masters. How many hourly workers percentage wise have bachelor or master degrees compared to Management? I'm betting it's a lot less. "

kURT wrote on Feb 10, 2010 8:09 PM:

" Matt I goggled you.
Your 1rst job was being a lawyer?
Have you ever performed physical labour for any length of time?
Have you ever "worked"? "

kURT wrote on Feb 10, 2010 7:39 PM:

" Hey Matt - 3rd world countries hate Unions there.
Please go there & thank them. "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 10, 2010 6:54 PM:

" P.S. The breaks were like new and it's a 2000.

Not like them new TOYOTA. "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 10, 2010 6:52 PM:

" Really
Really "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 10, 2010 6:51 PM:

" Really "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 10, 2010 6:50 PM:

" I just had my van worked on at the FORD dealer
Running like new.
Took it to Sandusky over in Eire County.

Ha Ha Ha
Norwalk FORD dealer didn't make a dime off of me..

OPPS Sorry Huron County, TAXES are less in Sandusky...
P.S. Not relly Sorry "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 10, 2010 6:44 PM:

" I ain't ever hearded of a union man getting fired or stepping down.

AND GETING A 9 Million Bonus.

You guys want to cry about unions,

Point the finger at the C E O'S & Plant Mangers
And the OWNERS of factories..

See it my way
There the one's getting rich "

E.Cartman wrote on Feb 10, 2010 6:29 PM:

" scooter58 you are exactly right. The unions have cut their own wrists with unrealistic demands. The basic idea of organizing to protect workers is fantastic, but greed has ruined a good thing.


p.s. Sanchez and Wang Chung say "Thank you big unions"! "

basepath wrote on Feb 10, 2010 5:23 PM:

" Well in the interest of attracting business and job growth with cheap labor, the answer is obvious. Don't pay the employees anything. Simply require the workers to work for free. That should put a stop to the southern and western states 'kicking our tail'. "

scooter58 wrote on Feb 10, 2010 4:36 PM:

" Mr. Yagielo ignores Mr. Mayer's point. Mr Mayer says that the cost of OPERATING a business costs more with union labor. Mr. Yagielo talks about CONSTRUCTION costs. Different topics. If he wants to disagree, get statistics relevant to continued operation of a business. I doubt he will find them. The math just isn't there. I am not saying anything about the quality of the work or the professionalism of the workers one way or the other. I am just referring to the actual cost of CONTINUED OPERATION, as was Mr. Mayer. I am sorry, but my lifetime observation is that union labor has frequently priced themselves out of jobs. People go into business to make money, and it costs money to make money. But the more you spend doesn't always equate to more profit. If you can get an acceptable product for less (labor) cost, it just makes sense economically. Labor is the biggest cost, and union labor costs more. "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 10, 2010 3:44 PM:

" Maybe all the workers in U.S.A.
With a visa should be sent back to where they came from, So that U.S.A. Born people could have a nice job.

OR IS THAT JUST A BAD IDEAL.

There would be lots of jobs then for everybody. "

bigwinner wrote on Feb 10, 2010 3:36 PM:

" Dear
Matt Mayer

Nice shirt,Nice tie, Nice Jacket!

Price-less,HAIR

Dr.Phil want a be
Talk is cheap
I could tell you stories about ohio also,
jobs going south of the border.
So I guess first hand that makes me a Economic analyst..

TOYOTA is non-union look at there safty record,Smart a $ $ like you talk about "Toyota Way" and working smarter.
China junk shipped to us is making kids sick and killing dogs and cats.

UNION workers make better things than over sea's,people in the U.S.A. that make stuff here is better than the cra.p that is sold to us from over sea.. "


 

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